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ltwin · May 14, '13, 3:08 am

Continued from previous post.

Now if you are talking about order and authority in general outside of church service matters, then I can explain that as well. At the congregational level, the pastor is the spiritual undershepherd. He is assisted by a board (sometimes called a deacon board, sometimes something else). These officers are called to serve the church. In addition, there may be other licensed or ordained ministers in the congregation that also provide leadership. These officers may or may not be accountable to the members of the congregation. If the congregation is affiliated with a denomination, then there will be further levels of authority and oversight according to the particular polities of the respective denominations:

The Assemblies of God: hybrid form of congregationalism and presbyterianism
Church of God in Christ: episcopal
Church of God (Cleveland): episcopal (they have "overseers" rather than bishops) and highly centralized
International Pentecostal Holiness Church: connectionalism
Apostolic Church (based in the UK): hierarchy of living apostles, prophets, and other charismatic offices

MartinJordan · #**233** May 14, '13, 4:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

During a church service, it would be the pastor ultimately, but this authority for regulating the meeting is also delegated to the speaker or leader at the time. For example, during the congregational singing, it would be the worship leader/pastor/director (whatever the title is) that would be leading the service.

Firstly thank you for taking time to explain all this stuff. It's appreciated.

Interesting. I didn't know Pentacostals (granted Ive not experienced being with a Pentacostal nor going to a service) that there is a leadership of sorts. Nor that your congregation fellowship was called a service. The Catholic Mass is also called a Service

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Or perhaps another minister besides the pastor is presiding over or speaking or exhorting during a particular part of the service. These would have responsibility for ensuring that all things are done decently and in order. My pastor has called out people at times that he thought were out of order, and no one questions that church leadership has the power to impose order.

Pastor is a leader. Got it

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Post #111 on page 8 may give you some insight to this as well. There is a traditional pattern of order in a Pentecostal church when it comes to the exercise of vocal gifts. I can tell you from personal experience that there is a change in the atmosphere of a service right before the operation of a vocal gift. An expectation comes over the congregation and it is like the Spirit of God is telling us to pause the service. When a message in tongues or a prophecy begins everything else occurring at that moment stops. My parents put the fear of God into me during these moments, and even now as an adult the most solemn moment of any church service for me is when a message or prophecy is given, because in that moment God is directly speaking to the church.

Interesting...I really admire that at the point there is a belief that God is speaking. So it's good. And not an evil spirit

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Any one speaking must stop. Any music playing must stop. This is a big deal. No matter how much Pentecostals love "mood music" there is one time during the service when no music or anything that could become potential emotional manipulation should be used and that is when God speaks. I remember we had a new drummer in our church. He was new to church in general, just got saved. The preacher was preaching, and as he does sometimes he called the band on stage to play music while he ended his sermon on a high note. And then the service shifted and someone began to give a message in tongues. All the other musicians yielded and stopped playing, but the drummer kept banging on the drums. Everyone was horrified and the pastor's wife began running up the church waving her arms trying to signal to him to stop. He eventually stopped and the interpretation was given.

Alternatively, when a leader ignores a message or a prophecy, it can cause problems. I remember once our church was in turmoil and strife over a lot of stuff. We had just changed pastors and the church was split between supporters of the new pastor and dissenters. (My family was on the dissenting side, but we also had representation on the board.) Anyway, the pastor's wife was leading praise and worship, and my uncle began to give a message in tongues. Under her leadership, the worship team kept on singing and playing. At this point, the entire congregation was confused and many of us were angry that known church order (and scripture nonetheless) was being violated.

When you get down to it, both were violating church order. The pastor's wife for refusing to yield and my uncle for insisting on completing the message despite the confusion it was causing. In retrospect, she claimed that she did not hear a message, which could be possible given the volume of the music, but tensions were high at the time and many thought she could have done it on purpose because she feared what might be said.

The assistant pastor took over the service. He gave a rather lengthy speech on church order, how the worship leader's oversight was unfortunate and should not have happened but even so was accidental. None of that changed the fact that at that point she was in charge of the service and it was her's to yield and not my uncle's to take. And then he said that he had been given the interpretation of the message and proceeded to give it. And the service continued as usual.

Ok noted.

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We take order very seriously. And we do what Paul says, "When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. . . . If a revelation is made to another sitting there, let the first be silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all be encouraged, and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets. For God is not a God of confusion but of peace."

Hope Im not sounding like Im interrogating you...but, how far does this tradition go for your church knowing that what Paul said is true? In other words why do you depend on the Bible (a book by the Catholic church for Catholics) if God's Spirit already talks to you in a special way? Im trying to understand how that this charism you and your church experiences, refers to the Bible to clarify to others?

To be continued...

MJ

MartinJordan · #**234** May 14, '13, 4:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin View Post

Quote:

Now, you will find that some of these traditional features are changing. For example, many Pentecostals have made background music a permanent feature in their services, so that even during a message in tongues or a prophecy a piano or some other instrument will be playing softly. Larger churches also have caused changes. Some churches designate microphones for people with vocal gifts to use, but of course, to get access to the microphones you have to go through the pastor or a designated official. They have to approve the message before you speak it out. In some ways, this is good. It could be a valid exercise in discerning a valid message from a faulty one. However, it also serves to filter out any content that might offend the congregation or the leaders, such as a justified message of rebuke.

Noted

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Now if you are talking about order and authority in general outside of church service matters, then I can explain that as well. At the congregational level, the pastor is the spiritual undershepherd. He is assisted by a board (sometimes called a deacon board, sometimes something else). These officers are called to serve the church. In addition, there may be other licensed or ordained ministers in the congregation that also provide leadership. These officers may or may not be accountable to the members of the congregation. If the congregation is affiliated with a denomination, then there will be further levels of authority and oversight according to the particular polities of the respective denominations:

The Assemblies of God: hybrid form of congregationalism and presbyterianism
Church of God in Christ: episcopal
Church of God (Cleveland): episcopal (they have "overseers" rather than bishops) and highly centralized
International Pentecostal Holiness Church: connectionalism
Apostolic Church (based in the UK): hierarchy of living apostles, prophets, and other charismatic offices

I must admit I didn't know there is a Authoritical system in Pentecostalism. Which shows there is a need for authority.

Jesus really meant business when he gave authority to the Apostles, as the Church is an organization. So Pentacostalism needs a system too

MJ

ltwin · #**235** May 14, '13, 5:20 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinJordan

Interesting. I didn't know Pentacostals (granted Ive not experienced being with a Pentacostal nor going to a service) that there is a leadership of sorts.

You better believe there is. Given, when the Pentecostal revival began at places like Azusa Street the service was freeflowing like water. But today there is an order and it is followed unless the Spirit moves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinJordan

I must admit I didn't know there is a Authoritical system in Pentecostalism. Which shows there is a need for authority.

It varies by denomination. For example, the Constitution and Bylaws of the General Council of the Assemblies of God is available online as a PDF, here. The Pentecostal Holiness Church's official manual is available in PDF format as well, here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinJordan

Nor that your congregation fellowship was called a service. The Catholic Mass is also called a Service

Yep. It's called a meeting, a service, a church service, or simply "church." You have special services like a funeral service or "homegoing;" baptismal service, communion service, revival meeting, prayer meeting, child dedication services, ordination services.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinJordan

Interesting...I really admire that at the point there is a belief that God is speaking. So it's good. And not an evil spirit

The reverence Pentecostals observe when it happens is akin to a sort of audible "Real Presence." That's how significant it can be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinJordan

I must admit I didn't know there is a Authoritical system in Pentecostalism. Which shows there is a need for authority.

Jesus really meant business when he gave authority to the Apostles, as the Church is an organization. So Pentacostalism needs a system too

We haven't even got to the best part: Pentecostals in liturgical vestments!

**grannymh** · #**236** May 14, '13, 6:16 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ltwin

OK, so maybe we don't believe the same things.

Let me explain the Pentecostal position more fully and then I'd like to here the Catholic position in fuller detail.

Thank you. I would like to do that.

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We believe that sin is both a condition and an act. We believe that scripture shows that the descendants of Adam are born into a sin cursed nature (Romans 5:12-21; Psalm 51:5). This is the sinful condition. The sinful act is a knowing and willful transgression of the law or omission of righteousness.

The transgression of Adam passed to all his descendants, except for Christ. This sinful condition in and of itself is not fatal. Spiritual death and divine condemnation occurs when one's moral conscience is awakened to the law (Romans 7:9-11). The pattern outlined by Paul is the pattern by which all humans come to the awareness and activation of sin. This condition is referred to as depravity or the carnal nature or inbred sin (see Psalm 51:5). But this condition is not fatal or damning until this dormant sin is activated by knowledge of the law and the person chooses sinful actions and embraces his depravity. This happens universally (Romans 3:23).

It should be noted that the law does not "create" sin. It defines sin (Romans 7:7). Transgression was already occurring before the giving of the law, and the law speaks "so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God" (Romans 3:19). Even so, sin is not simply a violation of a code of law. It is a violation of the divine nature and the severing of relationship with God. It is a violation of trust and a denial of God's trustworthiness. This occurs in the things we do and say, but more importantly in what we are; which is sinful and corrupt. The outward manifestations of sin have their root in our hearts. They may come forth in words and actions or they may exist entirely within the heart, never being acted on (Matthew 5:21-8; Mark 7:20-23).

Now having written all of that, let me write something that I think is important to point out given the questions raised. Sin is foreign to human nature. Adam and Eve were created both human and sinless. Christ was God but also man and was without sin. No one sins by accident, and the human condition (one's circumstances, weaknesses, or predispositions) is no excuse for sin. Yes, the conditions in which we live expose us to a certain set of temptations, but they do not predestine any set of actions or give us any excuses for our behavior. The idea that sin is attributable to human nature is a Gnostic heresy.

Also, full disclosure and credit, I have borrowed shamelessly and liberally from Living in the Spirit: The Way of Salvation by R. Hollis Gause, a Pentecostal theologian of the Church of God (Cleveland, TN).

Granny's full disclosure and credit. I shamelessly plagiarize the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition.

Answering your request -- "OK, so maybe we don't believe the same things. Let me explain the Pentecostal position more fully and then I'd like to hear the Catholic position in fuller detail." -- will take a bit of time as I am both overwhelmed and excited by the project of comparing theology. FYI. My theology course coincided with my nap time so there are gaps which I will have to research.

May I start with a basic belief that we share. Your statement "Christ was God but also man and was without sin." agrees with the Catholic statement "Christ is True God and True Man". Christ being sinless is because God assumed, not absorbed, human nature. Thus, Catholicism holds that Christ is one Person with two natures.

As a child, one of the first things I learned about The Fall is that Adam did not have the same status as God. God is transcendent Pure Spirit Creator without restrictions (simplified description). Adam is a created creature whose nature is an unique unification of a decomposing anatomy and an eternal spiritual soul. (Genesis 1: 26-27; 1 Corinthians 15: 49) Adam knew that in order to live in friendship with his Creator, he had to live in free submission to his Creator.
(Genesis 2: 15-17)

Jesus Christ bridged the gap between the divine and the human. So, too, it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living being,” the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. (1 Corinthians 15: 45-49). This bridge is essential because a human creature does not have the capability to repair a shattered relationship with the Divine Creator.

When we begin with John 3: 16, we can work backwards to Original Sin and its surrounding Catholic theology. Perhaps the best route is what you put in bold. Sin is foreign to human nature?

ltwin · #**237** May 14, '13, 6:24 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by MartinJordan

Hope Im not sounding like Im interrogating you...but, how far does this tradition go for your church knowing that what Paul said is true? In other words why do you depend on the Bible (a book by the Catholic church for Catholics) if God's Spirit already talks to you in a special way? Im trying to understand how that this charism you and your church experiences, refers to the Bible to clarify to others?

God's Spirit talks but its on a different level than Scripture with different authority. In post 135 on page 9, I quote Donald Gee from the Pentecostal classic, Concerning Spiritual Gifts.

It might help if I offer examples of the type of messages God speaks to Pentecostal congregations. These come from an academic article entitled "'Discerning the Spirit' in the Context of Racial Integration and Conflict in Two Assemblies of God Churches" by Bonnie S. Wright in Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour vol. 35, no. 4 (2005), pp. 413-435. The researcher collected these examples from observations of actual Pentecostal congregations.

Page 423, an interpretation of tongues:
You came here worried about your child. Your marriage troubles you. A traveling friend is on your mind. Give your cares to me. I will care for your ailing leg, missing loved one and your broken heart. Lay your burdens on me.

Page 426, a prophecy:
Why aren’t you praising me? There is no high praise here. I will not send my Spirit if there is no high praise. Why do you not praise me?

A much older example is from the October 1906 edition of the Azusa Street Mission's official organ, The Apostolic Faith:
Jesus is coming again,
Coming again so soon,
And we shall meet Him then.
Prepare your hearts now, for the Lord is coming soon, and ye know not the hour. If you are not prepared, you will not go with Jesus. He sees each heart, and wants to prepare them for His coming. Seek Him now, for some day it will be too late.
The Lord says: "I will bless all those that seek me with all their hearts, for God is no respecter of persons. The Love of God is so great." He says, "Come unto me; come unto me, and I will give you rest. I will baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire, and all those that seek me diligently."
O, Jesus is such a wonderful Savior. He is coming soon and all must have their hearts ready. O, Jesus is so sweet. He says: "Watch and be ready when I come." O, He is coming so soon.

peace2u2 · #**238** May 14, '13, 8:24 am

This is a very interesting thread esp. on the gift of tongues. What I am understanding about this gift is that this gift is a gift of prayer - although the real gift is the Holy Spirit. That is so beautiful. This prayer is a prayer of the heart not of the mind that the Holy Spirit gives us to praise God.

I was reading last night about 2 theologians at Notre Dame University and it took almost 2 years for one to come into tongues and 8 months for the other...

No wonder I was having difficulty praying in tongues - I was not yielding to the Spirit completely???

If I want to teach my children to pray in tongues, what can I do to introduce them to this form of prayer? Is it a good idea to incorporate praying in tongues with our traditional evening prayers and our prayers for the healing of others or should I end our evening prayers, praying in tongues? We are going to a Catholic pentecost prayer service this weekend at one of the Catholic churches in our community and I'm hoping they have the opportunity to hear this form of prayer at the service.

ltwin · #**239** May 14, '13, 12:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by peace2u2

If I want to teach my children to pray in tongues, what can I do to introduce them to this form of prayer? Is it a good idea to incorporate praying in tongues with our traditional evening prayers and our prayers for the healing of others or should I end our evening prayers, praying in tongues? We are going to a Catholic pentecost prayer service this weekend at one of the Catholic churches in our community and I'm hoping they have the opportunity to hear this form of prayer at the service.

I don't want to appear to be proselytizing, so I'll pass on answering this one. However, I'm sure the Catholic Charismatic Renewal has some guidance on this question.

PJM · #**240** May 14, '13, 12:28 pm

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=ltwin;10723272]For starters, my father and mother are Pentecostal and was raised in the Pentecostal tradition. Faith was always a big part of our family life, but it was only when I was 10 years old that I actually had a conversion experience. That was around the time that I began to internalize the faith I was taught and actually act on it.

A few years later I was baptized in the Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues, so I had moved beyond the typical evangelical Protestant experience.

It's not so much that I believe Pentecostalism is somehow the "correct faith" and all other Christian churches are wrong. I don't really think like that. There are many things I was taught as a child that I would disagree with today. One that stands out is the more extreme versions of prosperity/health and wealth gospel that was a big thing at my church.

I do believe that the basics I was taught were true to the Gospel and the overarching Christian tradition. I believe that what I was taught about God's nature and his divine plan are accurate. The Pentecostal understanding of Christ's life, death, and resurrection are accurate. I also believe that the basic experiential dimension of Pentecostal spirituality is faithful to biblical standards. Freedom of worship is something that I've come to love and value, and I get uncomfortable in other churches that impose to much control over the congregation or the move of the Spirit.

Sincere THANKS for sharring.

From your faith expereince and background, I'd like to ask:

IF we believe that God is ONE?

How then can God hold more than One position [one set of faith-beliefs] on LONG defined Faith-issues?

working4christ2 << working4christ2

Thursday, August 15, 2013

working4christ -- Ask a Pentecostal--From your faith expereince and background, I'd like to ask: IF we believe that God is ONE? How then can God hold more than One position [one set of faith-beliefs] on LONG defined Faith-issues?

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